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this is some absurd tech-idealism shit. for the love of god please give your users the tools to avoid nazis. i do not give a single fuck about the "spirit of decentralization" in comparison.

Whitelists go against the spirit of decentralization. If you can't start your own server and join in, but have to go through some kinda review process with every single other node, then you can't really start your own server. So whitelists will never be in the upstream repository.

github.com/tootsuite/mastodon/

there is now a whitelist mode, by the way, but it has been INTENTIONALLY HAMPERED so that it won't be used except by its intended users like schools or universities:

The risk of this mode is if it gains widespread adoption in non-academic contexts, thereby making entering the federation with a new server impractical. That would lead to the centralization around a few existing servers in the long term.

My risk mitigation is that the mode should have a "penalty" in the form of a clearly distinguishable branding that makes it clear to any visitor that they are looking at a standalone space and not at the fediverse / open web / Mastodon network.

github.com/tootsuite/mastodon/

i DO NOT WANT it to be easy to stand up a new server and immediately have it start federating with the one i'm on! it is extremely obvious how that would enable abuse and harassment! but no, the growth of the platform and the "spirit of decentralization" are more important than actually enabling users who have ALREADY ADOPTED your software to protect themselves from the nazis who are EVERYWHERE on the network! this is fucked up on the face of it.

seriously, how did the existence of 10MinutePleroma not IMMEDIATELY demonstrate to eugen the problems with this mindset! it is NOT a theoretical issue! it's something we could solve right now if the tools to do so weren't being intentionally kept from us by the maintainer!

@zorotl

how did the existence of 10MinutePleroma not IMMEDIATELY demonstrate to eugen the problems with this mindset

tbf probably because blocking a domain blocks all subdomains. i'm curious if the current influx of nazis is changing eugen's mind on this at all

@heartles yeah, but that's strictly a technical issue with those sites on 10MinutePleroma. it'd be absolutely feasible to create that same service with the ability to use a custom domain. sure, with the domain included and waiting for DNS to propagate it would cost a little bit of money and might take a few hours to set up instead of just minutes, but that's hardly a sufficient barrier to entry to keep people from block evading and such.

@zorotl yeah i just mean like i can totally see website boy ignoring the warning signs

@heartles oh yeah, absolutely. i thought you brought up a good point, i just wanted to point out in the thread that 10MinutePleroma was only coincidentally easy to block; it wasn't anything fundamental about its architecture or anything.

@zorotl i mostly agree with you and i tried to get him to not disable /about, public pages and such

though the concern about whitelists gaining traction and very seriously hindering federation as a whole is real, i probably would have had an extremely hard time getting any interaction on the fediverse when i set up my single-user instance if that were widely adopted

@zorotl like, if every instance is in whitelist mode, there wouldn't even really be any kind of organic discovery since you'd have to discover instances and convince them to federate with you before being able to actually see their contents in your feed. someone you follow boosts something from a place that hasn't whitelisted you yet? you don't even see it

i do think whitelist mode is useful and it shouldn't be tied to public pages and such not being available, but in the mid/long run we need better solutions and unfortunately i don't have one for the moment.

(some kind of graylisting could be better, but it's not obvious how it should work exactly; there's also work around other methods of allowing/disallowing interactions entirely, e.g. OCaps but i haven't been entirely convinced yet, there are still lots of design issues to sort out)

@Claire @zorotl perhaps greylists could work like:

If you greylist a server you see all their greylisted and non blocked servers, and those servers' non blocked servers as well, etc.

Blocking also blocks it's specifically greylisted servers and theirs (unless it conflicts with a higher branch in your greylist tree), cutting off further connection.

Should mean smaller instances aren't cut off by default, but blocks would prapogate. I think 😅

5AM half idea

@zorotl people who are active and have a reputation can and do start new servers that would have no problem with allowlist federation, it won't be a strict decline into insularity (at least, not without that being a cultural choice)

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