curious what the fediverse likes best
im gonna be honest I got scared away from xmpp because some rando on HN said that message ID's weren't even part of the core spec lmao
@heartles gamer mode
@wintgenstein uh oh *makes sure slur filter is on*
@wintgenstein I spend way too much time lurking on /r/gamingcirclejerk lmao
@heartles what's that
@wintgenstein left-adj gaming shitpost subreddit, they spend most of their time dunking on racists
@heartles XMPP as a spec is quite the shitfest, but I'd opt for it over centralized solutions for IM, any day.
Need encryption? There's OMEMO.
@heartles basically it is like HTTP, features are opt-in – which allows both gradual rollout & bitching about not everything having the same feature set.
Similarly to HTTP, there exist multiple interoperable clients that do support a large amount of modern features.
@heartles XMPP itself is pretty nice, but so many parts of it are extentions (xep, xmpp extention protocol), all of which are just specs or something like that and sometimes reference implementations don't exist, to the point of it being basically basically impossible to have multiple clients and servers working together right because not everyone supports all features or sometimes they're implemented wrong so shit just doesn't work.
@heartles I remember the goddamn pain of using jabber on my phone and my pc at the same time and it never working right, because both the app and the PC client didn't implement the client priority right or at all.
It's a damn shame really, if there was a little more consensus in the community and people would go more for compatibility than features or whatever, I believe it could have become the one good, secure, self hosted chat client everyone wanted :T
This. So much.
I got a bunch of people to use XMPP but the number of times someone could not connect, messages arrived on the wrong device, file transfers didn't work or zrtp sessions failed meant that they stopped using it around the same time most providers stopped serving it.
Maybe, if somebody had taken a sensible subset of the specs, given it a name and a reference implementation, and convinced a critical mass of developers/providers -- maybe then it could have worked?
@bootie_fringe @heartles no I get that they do, but theres always a little bit of fuckery going on and some things (especially Client priority) just never worked right. I know there are a few clients that don't blow now (though I think mobile only?), but it's too late, the damage is done, everyone at my old hackerspace I even mention jabber to immediately goes "oh no" :P
Idk if its changed in the last few years, but I don't think I'm gonna switch back any time soon :T
@heartles message ID?
@heartles My mom always told me not to believe strangers with no sources. https://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6120.html#stanzas-attributes-id
@pep could be wrong but i don't think a stream id is quite the same thing as a message id
but also i don't really care lmao
@heartles There is also a stream id, but the link points to stanza id (a message being a stanza).
@pep oop missed that
still tho this line: "It is up to the originating entity whether the value of the 'id' attribute is unique only within its current stream or unique globally."
this kinda disqualifies it from being able to be used as a message id tho, if you can't guarantee that it's unique
even if in practice its always made unique you could have the memester with the server that reuses ID's for different streams that claims they're within spec
@heartles As an aside, I was reminded of https://github.com/pushcx/sup/blob/master/lib/sup/imap.rb which nicely explains why IDs are HARD
Yes and no. I would gladly fail or reject a message if an implementation doesn't respect a MUST (normative text) in a specification.
Otherwise I'm always going to have to play catch-up with every implementation out there that doesn't have the expected behaviour. Why would we even have specifications in the first place.
And while there is place for some leeway here and there, on some important things -- such as IDs and their meaning -- fixing specifications that don't have normative enough text is also of course a desirable outcome 🙄
> I would gladly fail or reject a message if an implementation doesn't respect a MUST
Does #IMAP say otherwise?
> See also tools.ietf.org/html/draft-iab-…
There's a saying, rules are made for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.
Why is that guy even trying to argue about such an abstract concept? Unless I'm missing some context, pointless doesn't begin to describe it.
If your requirements demand it, the application id + stream id + stanza id will give you global uniqueness.
But what is your use case exactly?
Stanza id are not required to be globally unique simply because that's not necessary for the protocol to do its job.
Adding unnecessary complexity is known as gold-plating in the industry and is the mark of a bad engineer.
@heartles people actually use xmpp?
The whole standard hell is like a big no-no for me.
@heartles still salty about how much matrix is nerd bullshit
there is no good chat protocol anymore, it seems people don't even care. I almost didn't vote, but at least xmpp has a bit of potential, even though it is also nerd shit somewhat
@heartles Well, Wire is js based electron dependent nonsense. Discord is the worst. And matrix, xmpp, irc, and the fediverse are all functionally identical, with federated trust anchors. “Likes” would be a little strong for me. How about “hates less?”
@blub nothing in particular.
personally I want something that integrates well with the other chat services I use and that is FOSS, but this is more of an opinion poll for fedi
@heartles I'm missing Rocket Chat in the list. It can federated, too.
@Aarkon I knew I was gonna miss something
@heartles damned typo, I meant "it can federate", of course.
But yeah, it's grown kind of challenging to keep track of all the software in the fediverse.
@heartles none of the above, but Telegram.
@heartles all are garbage (never tried wire) but IRC has the benefit to be lightweight
@heartles not sure how is that possible, but it reminds me about Russian elections result...
@heartles A year ago i would have voted for xmpp. as old irc and icq+otr guy i loved xmpp. but for it easyness to use (client AND server side) matrix has the more modern and user friendly way to communicate imho
@heartles I wonder why wire is in there? 🤔
@heartles none of them
@heartles how in da world did you get so many votes jaina
@heartles I'm partial to mattermost, it's cute.
monads.online is a community for goth nerds, aka people who are interested in the intersections of math, art, programming, philosophy, and related topics. this does not include your techbro ass. we also enjoy a healthy amount of shitposting. if you are a techno-materialist, technocrat, or some flavor of capitalist, don't even bother applying. if you are interested in an account please fill out an application, detailing why you are interested in joining, what you have to bring to the community, and your prior, if any, accounts on the fediverse.