being a programmer gives you this weird form of brain damage that makes you think that you have arrived at all of your opinions using logic and pure reason and anyone who disagrees with you just hasnt logicked hard enough

its extra funny because the mid 20th century was dominated by a crisis in mathematics involving the fact that people used math to prove that math couldnt prove everything

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@fakemaxkeeble yes, there is a fantastic graphic novel about it called Logicomix

@fakemaxkeeble also if you want to go slightly deeper into this topic without doing formalized math, ray smullyan wrote a series of puzzle books that illustrate these concepts without ever using formal mathematical language, starting with his book "What Is the Name of This Book? The Riddle of Dracula"

@dankwraith I like to imagine that if there is a person-esque god he spent eternity waiting for the whole "impossible set of sets that don't include themselves" bit to finally land

@dankwraith My favorite is when they'll actually bring this up, and then drop the subject like a hot rock when you get interested and start to look into it. Douglas Hofstadter literally has written the books, plural, on these subjects, but still advocates for some very new atheist-y positions that are really called into question by related epistemological problems.

@dankwraith "Science is logically incapable of proving itself; naive realism simply cannot be the case. Anyways, if you claim experience outside the boundaries of scientific respectability, that's quackery and therefore dangerous and bad. Inquiry into it is also dangerous and bad. Hmm? You say you're interested in incompleteness and its implications? There aren't many. It's just a funny quirk and nothing more. Hard realism is fine, quit picking at it."

@Colophonscrawl hofstadter is hilarious because he pretends to be the hard materialist but i read half of GEB and it appeals to mystical aesthetics constantly

@dankwraith It does! It *really* does! Hell, as aggressive an agnostic mystic as Robert Anton Wilson mentions him and strange loops by name in multiple works of his, even Prometheus Rising. Then, though, you read Metamagical Themas and Hofstadter seems bewildered by mysticism even as he navel-gazes into places where materialism as a model is rendered totally useless. I just don't understand it.

@dankwraith the fact that more tech/science people don't know this is a real problem

@dankwraith people who major in computer science should be forced to take classes on

a) ethics, in general and specifically with regards to how it can go wrong in tech (dark patterns, biased data producing exacerbated bias in machine learning
b) the limits of "logic," including the that whole bit you mentioned about math proving that it can't prove all things that are true and various other crises of pure logic
c) basic sociology
d) more ethics

@anomaly we call ourselves engineers but at least structural engineers have to take at least one ethics class to graduate

@dankwraith calling software development "engineering" is such a huge joke

the world of software is held together with duct tape and string

and not in a good way

@dankwraith @anomaly at the university I went to, Computer Science did have a mandatory ethics class, and it continues to shock me that other places don't have any ethics classes at all.

@anomaly @dankwraith

It's been a while since I was a CS student, but isn't the halting problem a subset of b? I remember there were a few other unsolvable things in CS?

@celesteh @dankwraith if it's not directly related, it's in a similar spirit

I don't remember all the details

Kind of serious 

@dankwraith It took me so long to grow out of this and I'm very sorry about it.

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